You say obsession, I say huh?

Things with E. seem to have improved slightly in the last few days. Of course, that's all relative, considering that last week, the state of our relationship felt decidedly touch-and-go. So just because I have been dragged back from the precipice does not mean my legs are not still shaking from the vertigo.

We went out to dinner on Friday night, the first opportunity we had had in over a week to sit down together and have a civilized, leisurely conversation. Somewhere into my second glass of wine, I decided to gently broach the topic of treatment again. Since he was again resembling the old E. I know and love, I thought perhaps this signalled a change of heart on how to proceed.

Well, no. The dreaded "hassle word" did not arise, but the line given was more or less the same. That being, "I've thought about it and I still don't want to."

I pressed, gently, and was rewarded with this notable nsight into the male psyche;

"I can't articulate why I can't articulate my feelings about it."

I toyed with the bowl of olives and sighed. I looked over at E. and noticed how sad and tired he suddenly looked, with dark shadows under his eyes. So I was about to drop it and move on to something less controversial when he said,

"You're just...obsessed with this."

Obsessed? Ob-SESSED? Me? No, no, no. My friends, I take issue with that. In relation to the infertility cross I bear, I am many things- but obsessed is not a label I would apply to myself. OK, it is true that especially during the treatment cycle, I was more than a little preoccupied. But who wouldn't be? IVF treatment requires immense commitment and attention to detail. Getting to clinic appointments on time. Injecting medication at a certain hour of the day. Rescheduling or juggling other things in life (work, friends, weddings, family, vacations, cash flow) for the duration of the cycle. And that's before you take into account the emotional and psychological implications.

Embarking on medical treatment costing huge sums of money, with uncertain outcomes and no guarantee of success? Yeah, I think it's safe to say that most people would become a little preoccupied during that time. But in my view, that does not equate to obsession.

Nor does feeling sad, frantic, depressed, angry and scared when the outcome of that treatment was a big fat failure. All those feelings, let us never ever forget, are normal. N-O-R-M-A-L. Besides, all things considered, my thrashing and wallowing was of incredibly short duration, with very few demands placed upon E.

And since when does trying to make realistic plans for our future turn me into a fertility bunny-boiler? I honestly don't think that some pro-active consideration of the way forward at this particular point in time makes me in any way obsessed. I don't agree that a serious, mature, rational discussion about what it means for me and for us, makes me obsessed. I mean, damn. On the obsession spectrum, I am far over into the "relatively chilled out about the whole thing" category. There has been no daily nagging, actively proceeding behind his back, or sticking of pins in the groin area of a little E. voodoo doll.

The irony is that if there was something else I wanted to pursue in life, such as running a marathon, starting a business, learning a language, writing a novel- E. would be applauding my focus. He would commend my goal-oriented behaviour. In all other endevours, he would support single-minded determination. But when we start talking about something with emotional undertones, something where he feels like the riptide of my desire might suck him in and drag him down, then it becomes a bad thing. Dangerous. Worrisome. An obsession.

And yes, I told him all this, fighting the urge to kick him in the shins under the table. I'm not sure if my message sunk in- or at least, that was not something he could articulate.

Comments

[DD]

I think E. calls your quest an obsession because you can vocalize the hopes, dreams, fears, etc., so easily. Obviously E. thinks about it as well as noted by his appearance of exhaustion and that he addressed the topic with a label so quickly. It's the woman vs. man in the communication department, not Mare vs. E. thing. He will come around, he just needs more time.

[Kristin]

I sure hope the things work out for you and that some of the things you said sunk in. That is a really rough spot to be in.

[Lori]

I'm sorry to hear you're still struggling with E's feelings about going forward. I think that it's just hard for men to understand since our bodies are kind of where all the action happens. We can't as easily not think about things. I remember somewhat reassured when I read "Conquering Infertility" and it said that the author has rarely seen couples in the same place on how to proceed. We just tend to process things so differently and the experience itself is so different for each person. I hate to say give it more time, as time can feel so precious, but it sounds like that's what he needs.

[thalia]

In so many ways this is a classic male/female issue. It's so much harder for many men to express their feelings. And feelings can scare them. And as you said in another post, you're dealing here with an extreme form of the species. I am amazed at your abliity to deal with this situation (relatively) calmly and taking time to withdraw from the conflict from time to time.

But I'm a little worried about the toll this is taking on you, so I'm glad that you are returning to the topic when you get the chance. Although I can't imagine that that conversation made you feel any better, at least you had it. It's just going to take a lot of conversations like this, and gaps in between, to come together on this topic. We'll be here cheering you on (secretly) from the sidelines.

[Kate]

Please take no offense to this, but E is a man with full blown BDMS. (Big Dumb Man Syndrome) I am married to one with a strong case himself. What irks me the most is that the men folk have to do NOTHING physically in this whole process. We bear the brunt of the pain and suffering, physically and emotionally, and all they have to do is a little happy in a cup, yet we shouldn't have feelings about it lest it be obsession. I say poke him in the eye...lovingly, of course. ;o)

[laura]

You're so right about your focus on a goal, and how E would applaud your effort if it involved a totally tangible, non-emotional effort. Not to lump him into a catagory, but that is such a *man* attitude to take. Keep chipping away...

[Nico]

M also doesn't understand why I spend so much time thinking about all this. I think it's two things - one, we're the ones that have to remember to do the shots, to take the pills, to shove the pussaries up our cooters. Hard not to think about it.

Two, we've imagined ourselves as mothers all our lives. It's what we're meant to do (biologically speaking, not trying to get into any arguments here). Not to be able to have that takes away a huge part of how we've planned our lives from now on. You see your dreams being shattered left and right - also very hard not to brood on from time to time.

So, as you say, how you're feeling is NORMAL. I too think he will come around in time.

[T]

'sticking of pins in the groin area of a little E. voodoo doll' - but maybe it's time to start?

We are just entirely different creatures - my husband didn't understand until miscarriage after ivf 4 and into the dismal failure that was #5. They just don't get it right away, it takes a while for them to catch up. I hope he does sooner rather than later.

[Emily]

EEEExactly...if you were training for a marathon, you would be applauded for your 'dedication', but since it's having a baby, it's 'obssessed'.

I'm hopeful for things to come for you.

xxoo,

[OvaGirl]

Mare I keep coming back to your post and rereading it and searching for something to say that might help. I'm really sorry E is in this place right now. It sounds like fear and of course concern and love for you and your relationship. But his fear is halting you.

The "obsession" comment is unfortunate and unfair, the truth is we all have to be singleminded about TTC, that's the whole point of our infertility. We don't get to be casual and absentminded, and "whoops, guess what sweetie, I've got a surprise" about it. IVF is difficult and challenging, we know that, and so we actually do have to be determined and strong and focussed to get through the process.

At some point soon I hope E will be able to have a calm, rational, sensible discussion about this with you. And realise that you are ready. And be courageous enough himself to support you and encourage you through.

You are so patient and so wise Mare. It seems monstrously unfair after all you have been through that you must also negotiate this too. But you can do it. We know what a strong woman you are.

[akeeyu]

I blogged about this, Being Rudy.

http://herveryown.typepad.com/herveryown/2005/08/being_rudy.html

When we succeed, we're dedicated. Until we succeed, we're obsessed. If we don't succeed, we're crazy. Nevermind that the drive and desire is identical in all three scenarios.

[zhl]

You're certainly in a difficult spot, but you are decidedly normal. I agree with the others that is a "man" thing. He sees you in pain and wants to do something. He can't do anything (or much) about it and is powerless to help you in a way he sees meaningful so he doesn't want to do it again. You've done a wonderful job of articulating your feelings, and he will have to come around. I hope for you it's sooner rather than later.

[mm]

I'm so sorry that you're having to contend with this situation on top of everything else. My husband has accused me of being more concerned with our next IVF/treatment than our marriage before and I know how much it sucks when the one person who should be on your side starts wavering. Maybe this is just my obession talking, but I have very little patience when Mr L gets like this. You are a more understanding woman than I.

[JennaM]

Trying to imagine being in E.s head again. Umm... and beg to differ slightly on the marathon analogy--where so little is at stake for you as a couple, as a family. He is clinging to what has been working, I am going to (wildly) speculate. To wit: your relationship. And he his terrified of what could happen if the disappointments accumulate further. My guess is he will come around. He just needs to cycle through the nostalgia for a while. The unfortunate word choice ("obsession") and inability to "articulate" his feelings sounds like a lot of fear to me.

That said, I have the "whatever you want, Honey" brand of IF mate--frustrating in an entirely different way--so take my speculation with a very tiny grain of salt.

[Yellowgirl]

M--

I'm so sorry for you. If you can stand some more a$$vice from a wimpy lurker: when I was "obsessed" about getting engaged, and DH was dragging his feet, I finally vowed to myself that I was not going to raise the issue for a period of time-- I think it was 2 months or so. Don't think I told DH, although I may have, and the lack of me always mentioning it, etc made it easier for him to decide that yes, he wanted this too. Got engaged after the 1st month IIRC. It wasn't that he didn't want to marry me, but that he just wanted not to feel pushed into it.... wanted it to be his decision when and where he proposed (yes, I know, old fashioned but there you are). He had previously gotten pushed into an engagement, and it didn't work out. So he was proceeding cautiously. Sounds *a lot* like the situation you've described with E, although I know nothing can compare exactly. But, maybe my story gives you some hope.

Yellowgirl

[B. Mare]

Yellowgirl, that's an interesting angle and probably very close to the truth here. The funny thing is that I too tried a similar approach to the actual issue of engagement- that is, not mentioning it for long periods of time and hoping he would come around.

Five years later, and I am still waiting. Mmm.. Maybe this does not bode well.

[Pamplemousse]

I am sorry that things are tough right now. Talking helps, even when you think it won't.

[Amyesq]

Obsessed? That is just insulting. Unless dedicated, concerned, and desiring a very normal thing is 'obsessed'. I don't understand why, just because the first IVF didn't work, he would all of the sudden think it was no longer time to try for this. It seems to me you're either in the process of trying or you're not. When did he so firmly move into the "not trying" camp and does he ever feel that there will be movement in the other direction?

[carla*hinkle]

Hi there -- I am a recent reader of your blog and really enjoy your wonderful writing. I don't have much to say except you are in an extraordinarily difficult position, and I am somewhat concerned regarding your comment on the engagement parallel.

If E is a man who doesn't like formalized commitment, that might make this situation tricky to resolve. I'm not trying to be too critical -- obviously he is OK with a certain level of commitment, like being with you for so many years or just having an oops baby -- and that doesn't make him a bad person or a bad mate/parent. I'm not saying everyone has to get married to have a deep and loving relationship.

But it could make it very hard to find a way to move forward with fertility treatments, which require affirmative, semi-public action.

And on an entirely different topic, I wonder after your comment whether you are really happy, deep down, not to be married?

Please hang in ther and take care of yourself, a lot of strangers are thinking of you.

[J]

Obsessed?? Ugh, that is such a stupid, tired, sexist stereotype. E. sounds like he's in major denial. It's completely unfair for him to make "decisions" for you both through sheer inaction (even though that's probably not his conscious intent).

I am so sorry you're going through this, Mare -- how awful. I'm praying he comes around.

[Simone]

Lucky fertile women. All they have to do is screw their partners, let them orgasm & get pregnant. A pleasure. Without even trying! If only we could get the sperm without all the attitude. There is no rolling over & going to sleep with IVF and I think that's the part men find difficult. Mine's the same. IVF would be so much quicker, easier & less emotional if men weren't involved. Well, that's speaking for me of course. Hugs to you Mare, wish this wasn't so friggin painful.

[baby hungry man]

VROOM! VROOOOM! I'M PEELING OUT AND DOING DONUTS IN MY TRUCK! GAS IS EXPENSIVE! DONT MAKE ME DRIVE TO SCOTLAND! VROOM!

I hereby run over the idea that it’s a "man thing" where he "can’t express his feelings."
VROOM!

He IS expressing his feelings...!
VROOM!

I think Jenna is right about his fear. It is terrifying to face up to the tragedy, “failure,” and loss of infertility and how it defines you both. Thing is, the point of a relationship is to face fears together and build up each others’ courage, no? After what you have gone through you deserve to be supported not criticized.
VROOM! VROOM!

I've got his "obsessed" hanging...

Pendulously...

In my manties.

xoxo
bhm

[Kathy Napolitano]

Before my most recent m/c my DH asked me if I was going to "freak out" again if there was another m/c. well there was another m/c and guess what I dind't "freak out" I just quit sharing my feelings with him. It did tell me though that he was A) afraid and B) afraid for my mental health.

E may be woried about your mental health. We think you are normal, you think you are normal, E maybe he's worried he'll lose you if it all goes wrong.

Just keep lovign him and see if that helps.

[Allie]

Well surprise, surprise. Men can't express themselves. Who knew? Well, at least he was able to admit it. Even so, I would've kicked him under the table. I hear what you're saying about being preoccupied. But I'm even willing to go out on a limb here and admit that I was definitely OBSESSED during my cycle. Then I slowly regressed back to preoccupation and that's where I sit now, on IVF hiatis yet still totally preoccupied with all things baby. I think your feelings during, after, and in between cycles are normal. And since E. is your partner, it would probably feel really good if he could validate those feelings. Men aren't very good at that though. I'm sure it's hard for you to balance your feelings in this difficult time. I hope he comes around to your way of thinking. xxoo

[wessel]

Oy vey. I don't know what to say or where to begin. First I want to say I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with a reluctant co-pilot on top of everything else. I agree totally that "obsessed" is a poor choice of word, and that were you ACTUALLY obsessed with any other endeavor, he would support it wholeheartedly . . . because it wouldn't require any emotional output from him. But infertility requires a lot of emotional energy from both partners, (not to mention physical suffering for the female partner) and even if the women are always, ALWAYS, putting out 99% of the effort, it's that 1% leftover that throws the men into such a tizzy (present company excepted, BHM). :-)

A couple of years ago, I was pushing for DE and my husband wasn't ready for it. Of course, he couldn't just simply say that, so he chose to say something wildly inappropriate and shocking and hurtful instead. I don't even blog about it, it was that bad. Long story short, we got through it, and the advice from the therapist was to back away for a few months and not mention DE again. That's what I did, and, a year later, he came around. I'm not giving you advice or saying this is what you should do--not at all. I don't even know enough to know if the situation bears enough resemblance to be applicable to you. But I wonder if it is possible to discern whether E. is saying "never" or "not yet." That would make a huge difference to me in terms of my life plans.

Thinking of you and just hoping for the best outcome in all this.

[reprogirl]

You're not obsessed. You're wise, graceful, and committed.

I completely agree with what you said about other kinds of committment being admired while this one is disparaged. I don't think this is only E (although that's no excuse); it's my impression that this is the world's attitude. It is OK to try, to strive, for other things but there is general disapproval of trying too hard for this. (I think it's one ingredient in the toxic sludge from which the phrase "just relax" crawls out in its primeval monstrous way). I would go further and say there's a connection between this and our society's attitude generally towards children and families. Everyone pays lip-service to the notion that children are our most precious resource and it is a healthy, spiritually evolved thing to value love and family above worldly success. But the world will admire you for striving for worldly success (though, I agree with Akeeyu, not if you try too hard and fail), while thinking of you as mildly deranged if you try to hard for a child, a thing which is supposed to be so much more important. And don't try asking the world to pay for any day care centres, either.

Good luck, bon courage. And hey, I know where to get donor sperm if he doesn't come around :)

[fisher queen]

I hate how IF can put stress on the marriage. As if we need more stress. I think bhm had a good point, and it's worth pursuing with E.
One thing: I've noticed my own DH sometimes uses words without really thinking- maybe "obsessed" really meant -fill in the blank. Maybe he is concerned for you.
My assvice: tread gently, but keep going.