Zzzzzzz Wakey wakey zzzzz

Right, one more post about sleep and then I promise I will diversify and talk about something else for a bit, like poop or preparing for a transatlantic flight.

As I mentioned earlier, in attempting to sort out the early waking problem, based on Ferber's assertion that most babies are really capable of only so much time in bed per night, I realised we should look at Botany's overall sleep schedule.

Now, I know a lot of people say a later bedtime is not the answer- particularly based on the Weissbluth approach that "sleep begets sleep". Except in Botany's case, we'd been operating on this sort of early bedtime philosophy without much success. Up until recently, she was going to bed around 6.30pm and no later than 7pm. In addition to the night wakings, she always seemed to wake up about 5.30 am no matter what, then go back to sleep once I brought her up into bed with us until about 7am. After reading Ferber, I wondered if maybe the problem was that she just isn't able to sleep that much at night and I decided to try to push her bedtime back a bit later to see if might result in either reduction of the night wakings or else a slightly later wake up time.

My aim was to shoot for a 7.30 pm bedtime and see if that made any difference. According to Ferber's approach, in order for the shift to work, this would also mean moving everything else a bit later, including all the naps, and then sticking to those times regardless of whether any of the sleep over the course of the 24 hour was disrupted.

Except...unfortunately, I've pretty much totally failed to achieve this. We just can't seem to do it. The irony is that having struggled for months now to get this baby to go to sleep when I want her to, I find it is equally difficult trying to keep her awake when she is tired. It probably doesn't help that we take all her naps together, and as I'm usually very weary myself, I find it hard to resist the temptation to just go lie down with her. It also doesn't help if we go out in the car or the buggy or the Ergo, she'll immediately fall asleep. So basically, keeping her awake to a certain time means staying in the house-which I think we both find boring and which just creates more fretful fussiness.

As for bedtime, well- let's just say that the half hour leading up to nursing her down for the night is usually a real low point in the day. We just about get through bath time but then she is screamy hot mess while getting into her jammies. It's not particularly pleasant for E., who most often assumes these pre-bedtime duties. And as for me; I'm kind of done by then. Don't get me wrong, I love my child with the ferocity of a thousand hungry tigers. But after over twelve hours on my own with her, during which we have been together virtually every single second, much of it with her physically strapped to my body? Knowing she'll be up again at 4am wanting my attention?  Yeah. I'm ready for her to be asleep so I can have a break. So the upshot is that her bedtime presently remains as 7pm.

My question for people with later bedtime babies: HOW do you do it? I mean, what do you actually do with the child all evening to keep them up, without ensuing whiny meltdowns? Or are most babies not as fractious as this by 6.30? I suppose it must also make a difference if you're working and haven't seen the baby all day but I do wonder how others manage.   

Eventually, I realised it was probably pointless worrying about it because the time change when we travel will throw everything out of whack as it is. We're going to be in Florida for over six weeks (yeeeehaaaw!) so I'm hoping that in adjusting to the new time zone, we have a chance to remold the schedule a little bit. And I'm also hoping that it will help to have my parents on hand during the tricky parts of the day when we need to keep Botany awake. Or at least that I can hand her to my mother and hide down at the boat dock. I'll worry about what happens when we come home later.

As far as the naps go- thanks for the assurances on that front. I've try to give up fretting about it so much right now. What I realised is that although it would be nice to have a wee opportunity to "get things done" duing the day while Botany sleeps soundly in her cot, usually what I most want to do when I get a chance is...have a nap myself. So it seemed a little bit of unnecessary aggravation for everyone to endure the whole CIO palaver in an attempt to get her to sleep during the day in her bed, when in fact I quite like curling up with her-(although perhaps not two or three times a  day, and perhaps it would be somewhat preferable were she not clamped on to my right boob the entire time).

It would be nice to have some neat conclusion to all this: my child's sleep problems all solved! But in all honesty, I suspect the course of sleep will probably not run smoothly here for some time. For example, over the weekend, someone turned the switch in Botany's head to "babble mode" and all she wants to do is treat the world (or at least E., the neighbours, the cashier at the super market and the dog) to her new vocal stylings- da dada dah DAH daa um gagga da DA DAD AH DA DA. So it wasn't unexpected that she woke up at 11pm giving us all another rendition.  Being so so tired myself and still not completely over my cold, I went ahead with giving her a feed just so I could go back to bed. I also rather hoped she would then sleep longer than 4am...but it was not to be.

One day at a time. One night at a time. And trying to remember that I'll probably look back on this at some point and wonder why I was in such a hurry to sleep when there was a sweet baby for me to rock and hold.

Comments

[Danielle]

Well, you did ask, so here it goes. I do work out of the house 4 days/week, almost full-time. So evenings are our prime time for reconnecting and spending time together. With that said, for both my children I have (shockingly) let them set their own bedtimes, within reason. Now, for an infant, this doesn't mean waiting until he or she popped of the couch and headed back to their rooms with a quick "Goodnight!" Instead, I've noticed when they seem to need to sleep (fussy, eye-rubbing, flitting from activity to activity without engaging, that sort of thing), and then shifted the nighttime rituals to start slightly before then. This might mean pressing the issue a bit on some nights, like insisting that they let Daddy hold them and walk them to sleep, even though they insist they want to talk to the dog more. After a few days, the comfort of a night-time ritual and the sheer exhaustion of being a baby with so much to do all day kind of takes over.

I've also found that this approach doesn't really seem to have any impact on naps, and vice-versa, unless we end up with a really late nap one day, which might mean an extra hour of awake-time at night (at most).

Of course, each baby is different, and both my babies took short naps from 5-6pm, which powered them through to 8-9 pm without major meltdowns (usually).

Good luck on the upcoming trip; it could be a great opportunity to re-work some of the sleep schedule. What an improvement at night, though!

[Kathleen]

Similarly haven't had luck with the early bedtime (mine is a few weeks younger than Botany). Have pushed bedtime back to 8-8:30 and, for now at least, the 5 am nonsense is over. Still have nightwaking here (to nurse only, right back to sleep), but we're not really working on that at the moment. She's in bed with us so while it sometimes sucks, it's doable. The Up!For!The!Day! at 4 or 5 am was not.

Anyway, we also accomplish the late bedtime with a 5-6 or so power nap. Also handy for making dinner. You could back Ergo her if she'll sleep that way.

[Becky]

We pushed bed time back but Charlie was always fussy because he was always sleep deprived because OMG sleep is obviously when all the really good stuff happens that we can't miss! So, the extra fussy wasn't as big of a deal for us. I do seem to remember that the first several days of pushing bedtime back were a bit hellish. I would rec that you start on a Friday so you can tag team all weekend. We also went out a lot during the late afternoon as well, until things calmed down. We picked places that weren't too far away so he wouldn't wind up sleeping too much in the car but were stimulating enough that he might not notice how miserable he was- the mall, the grocery store, and we went out to eat for dinner for several days. Once he started shifting it got better but for a few days it was really hard.

[Carla Hinkle]

The time change/jet lag is an excellent time to try a schedule switch.

I'm sure you know this, but if you want to move the bedtime back, you can do it in teeny-tiny increments (even 10 minutes earlier per night, or over a few nights).

It is hard to mess with a baby's bedtime, though. When mine were that age (6 months-ish?) I never had much luck doing it until they were a bit older (1 year +).

[thalia]

Bedtime for us is between 1930 and 2000 due to a 5pmish 40min ish nap. She just can't currently get through the evening routine without it, she just melts down at some point. The piece of advice we follow which has really worked is that if she's been awake for 2 hours, she probably needs a nap. SO she wakes at 7, naps at 9-11, naps again at 1300-1500, naps again around 1700. Not precisely, you nderstand, but approx.

have you thought of doing a quick feed before the bath to chill her out a bit and then a bigger feed later? That works well for us.

Hoping the time difference helps you get her on a better schedule.

[Laura]

My son's bedtime is 8:00. It used to be 6:30 or 7:00, but after reading Ferber and growing tired of the 5:00 AM wakings, I moved it to 8:00. He now sleeps until 7:00 AM or even later, but he still wakes up a LOT at night, especially in the wee hours between 3:00 AM and 5:00 AM.

He's fractious between 6:00 and 8:00 PM, and like Botany he is often a screamy mess while pajama-ing him. I usually take him on long walks around the neighborhood during this period. Sometimes he takes a brief nap. I'm not sure, though, that these walks aren't intended mostly to kill time until I get my own break at 8:00.

[expat]

My kids both have inbuilt bedtimes

[Kate]

Ellie's second nap at daycare ends at around 4, they feed her at 4:30 and I pick her up at 5:30. When we get home (around 5:45), she wants to eat again, and then we play, and after my husband gets home, one of us cooks dinner, we all eat around 7:30 (Ellie eats too - mostly veggies that I've cooked until they're mushy), then Ellie takes a bath, then she eats again, and then she's off to sleep, with maybe a book if she stayed awake long enough. She ends up going to bed around 8:30, and she's generally in a pretty good mood all evening. She wakes up at 5 to eat and then goes back to sleep for a couple of hours in my bed. I like the later bedtime, because I work full-time, so it lets me spend more time with her.

[Tor]

LOL I was wondering how people who got their babies to sleep at a regular early time managed it!
Silly us, we should know by now - it's all up to the bubs! Don't we get it yet that we have no control?

My lil fella has no set bedtime. Sometimes he goes down for the nite before 6pm. Not often. Sometimes he doesn't nod off til after 11pm. Usually it's probably between 7 and 9pm. ish. give or take. He just won't go to sleep before he wants to. Sometimes it's a couple hours after a feed, sometimes he has to be fed to sleep. Sometimes I *think* I am feeding him to sleep, only to discover it's given him enough energy for a 2nd wind.

He does get difficult in the late arvo/ early evening, and sometimes this lasts til after hubby comes home after 7pm, but then if he stays awake it usually goes away and he's fine again and wide awake for a few more hours.

He seems to like to sleep (with waking for feeds every couple of hours) for a bit more then 12hrs, and then be awake (with naps every few hours) for again just over 12 hours. So each day's bedtime is a bit later than the previous, then the next mornings wake time a bit later again, til things get really late, then something happens to reset it back to the early time (don't ask me what, we probably miss a cycle or something) and we start again, each day slowly incrementing.
We have just been going with the flow cos right now his will is stronger than mine so he always gets his way.

[scantee]

My guy's bedtime is 8 pm (he's 4.5 months). I don't think we did anything specific to set that time, rather, he was going to bed several hours later at 2 months so 8 pm became our "early" bedtime. I agree that the early evening catnap is essential. Ours is in daycare and gets his half hour nap at 4:30 in the car on the way home. We start his evening sleep routine-bath, massage, pajamas, book, feeding- at 7:15 so he really only has a little over two hours to last. Turning on lots of lights, playing music or the tv, and passing him between my husband and I seems to keep him awake and even keeled.

Agreed that our expectations of a normal amount of infant night sleep are too high. Mine can't go more than 10.5 at night.

[Fizz]

Gotta love Daylight Savings Time - that "spring ahead" thing fixed our bedtime issues - my son's bedtime had crept to between 6:30 and 7, and he was waking at 5:30 for the day. And then the time change hit and presto! A 7:30 bedtime! :) (Incidentally, bedtime is so ingrained with my son that even if he accidentally naps 5:30 to 6:30 he'll still be ready to go to bed at 7:30. It's like his body hits the "off" switch at that time)

As for killing time before bed - my son usually gets grumpy when he's in the house in the evening, so in good weather we hit a playground until just before bedtime. During the winter we've let him veg out in front of his favorite video of heavy machinery for a half hour before bed. Botany should be only enough for playgrounds by the time the weather is warm enough to play outside!

[Jenn (dish)]

Given that we often don't get home from work until 7pm, our kids have later bedtimes due to schedule and also because they just won't go to sleep, darnit. My son (almost 3) is normally asleep by 9pm- 9:30 on especially hectic evenings. The girl (6 mos) will stay up until 11pm or later if she has not fallen asleep in the car on the way home. If I were home with her all day (as I am on weekends) she would sleep NEVER, because she might miss something. My weekends are exhausting. Based on that, you may have guessed that she does not sleep through the night yet.

Hmm, I guess I didn't have any kind of advice...other than to add to the collection of stories that will hopefully make you feel better. :-)

[B. Mare]

Fizz- Oh yes, I meant to write in the post that DST would have probably been a big help in fixing the bedtime thing except we don't change the clocks here in the UK until toward the end of March- by which point we will be away in the US. Boo.

[Jennifer]

I work full time so our baby's bedtime is at 8pm. When she was B's age, she did usually take a short nap at 5pm - she would fall asleep in the stroller on the way home from daycare. That would give me time to wash bottles, pump parts, pack tomorrow's lunch and cook dinner. When she woke up, we usually played, sometimes gave her a bath, had dinner, and then put her back to bed for the night.

[Lurker Girl]

My 10-month baby used to have the exact same problem ... couldn't stay awake past 6:30 pm and up at 5:30. After moving her bedtime later to no avail (and it screwed up naps the next day), I finally moved it UP to 6:00 and now she sleeps until 6:30 am. I read somewhere that even a 5:30 bedtime works wonders for some early risers.

It took a few days and a few bouts of pre-dawn CIO ubt she got it. I find that when she wakes up too early (either from a nap or in the morning), she cries. When she's well-rested, she cooes and babbles and entertains herself for awhile. That's how I knew 5:30 wasn't the right time for her to get up. And God knows it wasn't the right time for this WFHM to get up!

[jules]

aaahhhh. the early bedtime conundrum. i am so tempted to try the 5:30 bedtime--currently we do no later than 6:45pm, still decent. But we've gone as early as six and she ALWAYS falls asleep @7pm, regardless of when we put her down. wakes bet 5 and 5:30 no matter what.

this is where i am so confused: is the ferber science (sleep phases, makes so much sense) right or the weissbluth????

[jules]

p.s. and yes, she wakes up cranky at 5ish and soon wants a really early morning nap. a broken sleep cycle (ferber) i think.

[Alex]

Not much help here. I put mine down at about 8 pm and pretty much always have. That avoids the problem of our too early wake-up being absurdly too early, so it works for me.

I, too, struggle with the get-out-of-house napping problem. I hate to waste a good baby nap on a car ride and if he doesn't sleep long enough (because he wakes when I get him out of the car), then he's no longer tired enough to fall back asleep but quite tired enough to be cranky. Yet the option (sometimes) is staying housebound. Annoying. I'm with you. As you say, we won't have this problem forever.

[Tam]

You know, I think I wouldn't mind getting up at 5.30 am if my husband and I got some time to ourselves in the evening. As it is, I'm lucky if I can wrestle our nearly-six-month old into bed and down for good by 10 pm.

And yes. He's up at 6 am. Bloody unfair.

[Tor]

Based on what I have read here, I have just reserved a copy of Ferber from the local library. I just have to wait for it to be returned by another desparate mum. Am excited and hopeful.

[Amyesq]

When Tim gets home at 7, I am often just wanting to hand them off and yell "Take them!" Nothing to do with not loving them, everything to do with needing a break. Don't feel bad.

Wish I could help with the sleep thing. Sounds really overwhelming, actually. Hopefully Botany will do well with travel and how wonderful to get into the sunshine for so long! And have mom and dad to help.